Comments on: The Rapid Silver Line – More Concealment and Deceit http://www.grpundit.com/2009/04/19/the-rapid-silver-line-more-concealment-and-deceit/ Politics | Economics | Society | Grand Rapids, Michigan Tue, 13 Sep 2011 15:32:09 +0000 hourly 1 By: Rapid Silver Line: They Almost Got to Take Credit | Grand Rapids Pundit http://www.grpundit.com/2009/04/19/the-rapid-silver-line-more-concealment-and-deceit/#comment-487 Rapid Silver Line: They Almost Got to Take Credit | Grand Rapids Pundit Wed, 13 May 2009 21:16:34 +0000 http://www.grpundit.com/?p=346#comment-487 [...] As we have previously pointed out, the development in Portland around mass transit, as the pro-Rapid supporters love to point to, only occurred after government subsidies were enacted. The development did not occur due to the mass transit system. This is the heart of the pro-Silver Line argument; that the Silver Line “would have” spurred several dollars’ worth of development for each dollar spent. This is simply not the case. The only evidence the Rapid points to in support of their argument is a thinly-documented three page article, as we pointed out here. [...] [...] As we have previously pointed out, the development in Portland around mass transit, as the pro-Rapid supporters love to point to, only occurred after government subsidies were enacted. The development did not occur due to the mass transit system. This is the heart of the pro-Silver Line argument; that the Silver Line “would have” spurred several dollars’ worth of development for each dollar spent. This is simply not the case. The only evidence the Rapid points to in support of their argument is a thinly-documented three page article, as we pointed out here. [...]

]]> By: SouthlandGR http://www.grpundit.com/2009/04/19/the-rapid-silver-line-more-concealment-and-deceit/#comment-475 SouthlandGR Mon, 04 May 2009 18:18:26 +0000 http://www.grpundit.com/?p=346#comment-475 Nope, don't own property on this route. I take my handle name from a nickname for the land south of GR (Wyoming-Kentwood.) You should probably stop assuming things. It's not a great way to lead into a debate and overall rude. You assumed someone who I was not and essentially supplanted that into your argument against my inquiry. You are telling folks to not vote for this, but you don't provide any hard sources or numbers for your claims. Again, all I ask is that you clarify some of the statements you make on your website. It's not unreasonable to expect you to provide numbers and sources for your talking points. Educate me.... Nope, don’t own property on this route. I take my handle name from a nickname for the land south of GR (Wyoming-Kentwood.)

You should probably stop assuming things. It’s not a great way to lead into a debate and overall rude. You assumed someone who I was not and essentially supplanted that into your argument against my inquiry.

You are telling folks to not vote for this, but you don’t provide any hard sources or numbers for your claims.

Again, all I ask is that you clarify some of the statements you make on your website. It’s not unreasonable to expect you to provide numbers and sources for your talking points.

Educate me….

]]> By: MaryCaldwell http://www.grpundit.com/2009/04/19/the-rapid-silver-line-more-concealment-and-deceit/#comment-470 MaryCaldwell Thu, 30 Apr 2009 04:12:05 +0000 http://www.grpundit.com/?p=346#comment-470 SouthlandGR you are off your rocker. I am a middle class soccer mom and don't get a dime to visit any websites, or support the drive against this busline. I am person with a brain that lives near Division avenue. Dah, it is the BIG monied owners of vacant property that want little average tax payer like me to buy up their unwanted real estate not caring if Federal money is wasted too, when people are hurting during this economy and their property values have fallen drastically while their taxes continue to rise. Division avenue will be such a mess with only two lanes, especially in Wyoming and Kentwood, with no parking for busnesses left, that people will be in a bottleneck to take 131 to avoid the mess. But some don't care as they buy this B.S. hype on Prime Time television paid for by people who do have money.$$$$$$ I would guess you are a property owner who wants to unload their Division avenue holding, instead of pulling up your bootstraps and taking care of your own business. There is simply no need for this bus and I don't want to see this waste and traffic congestion, and forever more taxes for an absolutely needless bus. Too many of the buses are empty now. Way too many. They could speed up this route by taking some of the vacant buses and rerouting them to peak use times and cost us NOTHING. But hey that is too sensible for our government. Existing bus stops exist using state of the art hybrid electric buses NOW and they have not spurred any development. And, the "new" bus is not much faster than the perfectly adequate buses we have. They are using the false promise of jobs and "development" as bait and people are buying into this out of ignorance and self-interest. Heck the zero property tax zones in downtown G.R. haven't even gotten Division going. They used this same technique to get Millions of dollars of taxes to remodel Monroe Mall/Monroe Center and change it from a pedestrian mall to an open street, and back again THREE TIMES. None of this has spurred any redevelopment. None of it. Most of the buildings there are vacant. People shop at suburban malls, and use the internet for shopping, use Satellite hospital clinics, etc. Davenport and Calvin College are on East Beltline. Metro Hospital and big St. Mary's complex went in on M-6. Times change. Look at Rogers Plaza. They were once the shopping center of West Michigan. We are not proposing to build a NEW slightly faster bus to bring back this mall. Bottom line there are dead retail buildings all over West Michigan as there is not a larger enough population density to support retail shopping everywhere. We are not N.Y.C. and I don't give a hoot what some Chamber of Commerce says as again, the chamber is full of commercial property owners, not average joe tax payers, so the Chamber "studies" are very biased and incidentally, don't show anything to back up claims of job creation. Sure there may be very short term jobs during creation of this monster, then we all get to pay for the mess forever NEVER to return to a normal neighborhood with parking at the door. We are the little tax payers, not the big monied people paying for Prime Time million dollar advertising through contributions to a supposed nonprofit, so they can deduct all the contributions off their taxes later. Sleazy politics. Hmmm do you own the Southland Tavern on Division in Wyoming? That has been for sale for ages and noone wants it as it has been denied a full liquor liscene. Want the citizens to be your buyer? No way. It is not rocket science to know that most owners of viable businesses don't want the government buying up their property. I don't want to fund some entrepreneur's retirement and middle class tax payers don't want to either. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSHfRmM8h5I Visit downtown on April 28, 09 during the day. Place is dead, vacant has been that needs no additional buses. After five it is a homeless shelter. Medical Mile is dead after five also. They already have wasted buses running til nearly midnight. SouthlandGR you are off your rocker. I am a middle class soccer mom and don’t get a dime to visit any websites, or support the drive against this busline. I am person with a brain that lives near Division avenue. Dah, it is the BIG monied owners of vacant property that want little average tax payer like me to buy up their unwanted real estate not caring if Federal money is wasted too, when people are hurting during this economy and their property values have fallen drastically while their taxes continue to rise.
Division avenue will be such a mess with only two lanes, especially in Wyoming and Kentwood, with no parking for busnesses left, that people will be in a bottleneck to take 131 to avoid the mess. But some don’t care as they buy this B.S. hype on Prime Time television paid for by people who do have money.$$$$$$ I would guess you are a property owner who wants to unload their Division avenue holding, instead of pulling up your bootstraps and taking care of your own business.
There is simply no need for this bus and I don’t want to see this waste and traffic congestion, and forever more taxes for an absolutely needless bus. Too many of the buses are empty now. Way too many. They could speed up this route by taking some of the vacant buses and rerouting them to peak use times and cost us NOTHING. But hey that is too sensible for our government.

Existing bus stops exist using state of the art hybrid electric buses NOW and they have not spurred any development. And, the “new” bus is not much faster than the perfectly adequate buses we have.

They are using the false promise of jobs and “development” as bait and people are buying into this out of ignorance and self-interest. Heck the zero property tax zones in downtown G.R. haven’t even gotten Division going.

They used this same technique to get Millions of dollars of taxes to remodel Monroe Mall/Monroe Center and change it from a pedestrian mall to an open street, and back again THREE TIMES. None of this has spurred any redevelopment. None of it. Most of the buildings there are vacant.

People shop at suburban malls, and use the internet for shopping, use Satellite hospital clinics, etc. Davenport and Calvin College are on East Beltline. Metro Hospital and big St. Mary’s complex went in on M-6.
Times change. Look at Rogers Plaza. They were once the shopping center of West Michigan. We are not proposing to build a NEW slightly faster bus to bring back this mall. Bottom line there are dead retail buildings all over West Michigan as there is not a larger enough population density to support retail shopping everywhere.

We are not N.Y.C. and I don’t give a hoot what some Chamber of Commerce says as again, the chamber is full of commercial property owners, not average joe tax payers, so the Chamber “studies” are very biased and incidentally, don’t show anything to back up claims of job creation. Sure there may be very short term jobs during creation of this monster, then we all get to pay for the mess forever NEVER to return to a normal neighborhood with parking at the door.

We are the little tax payers, not the big monied people paying for Prime Time million dollar advertising through contributions to a supposed nonprofit, so they can deduct all the contributions off their taxes later. Sleazy politics.
Hmmm do you own the Southland Tavern on Division in Wyoming? That has been for sale for ages and noone wants it as it has been denied a full liquor liscene. Want the citizens to be your buyer? No way. It is not rocket science to know that most owners of viable businesses don’t want the government buying up their property. I don’t want to fund some entrepreneur’s retirement and middle class tax payers don’t want to either.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSHfRmM8h5I
Visit downtown on April 28, 09 during the day.
Place is dead, vacant has been that needs no additional buses. After five it is a homeless shelter. Medical Mile is dead after five also. They already have wasted buses running til nearly midnight.

]]> By: Rapid Silver Line - Another Waste of Money | Grand Rapids Pundit http://www.grpundit.com/2009/04/19/the-rapid-silver-line-more-concealment-and-deceit/#comment-465 Rapid Silver Line - Another Waste of Money | Grand Rapids Pundit Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:22:44 +0000 http://www.grpundit.com/?p=346#comment-465 [...] Rapid Silver Line - More Concealment and Deceit [...] [...] Rapid Silver Line – More Concealment and Deceit [...]

]]> By: SouthlandGR http://www.grpundit.com/2009/04/19/the-rapid-silver-line-more-concealment-and-deceit/#comment-462 SouthlandGR Wed, 22 Apr 2009 00:14:05 +0000 http://www.grpundit.com/?p=346#comment-462 Mary, please offer your readers and others how you obtained 110$M in the various websites you promote. It doesn't help me as a tax payer to tell something is expensive and not line item it. By the way upwards of 50,000 to 60,000 people travel downtown every day. This city isn't New York, but it isn't Maybury. Mary, please offer your readers and others how you obtained 110$M in the various websites you promote. It doesn’t help me as a tax payer to tell something is expensive and not line item it.

By the way upwards of 50,000 to 60,000 people travel downtown every day. This city isn’t New York, but it isn’t Maybury.

]]> By: Rapid Silver Line - Bus “Slow” Transit | Grand Rapids Pundit http://www.grpundit.com/2009/04/19/the-rapid-silver-line-more-concealment-and-deceit/#comment-460 Rapid Silver Line - Bus “Slow” Transit | Grand Rapids Pundit Tue, 21 Apr 2009 18:59:10 +0000 http://www.grpundit.com/?p=346#comment-460 [...] Rapid Silver Line - More Concealment and Deceit [...] [...] Rapid Silver Line – More Concealment and Deceit [...]

]]> By: Mary caldwell http://www.grpundit.com/2009/04/19/the-rapid-silver-line-more-concealment-and-deceit/#comment-458 Mary caldwell Tue, 21 Apr 2009 04:31:00 +0000 http://www.grpundit.com/?p=346#comment-458 www.grandrapidsbustonowhere.homestead.com Don't subsidize the hype business owners of diplidated properties are hoping will allow them to scam buyers into thinking their proporties are gold mines. Government and business SPECULATES and Deceives with YOUR MONEY REMEMBER THE BRIDGE TO NOWHERE? It is coming here. Stop the BUS TO NOWHERE http://www.grandrapidsbustonowhere.homestead.com

Don’t subsidize the hype business owners of diplidated properties are hoping will allow them to scam buyers into thinking their proporties are gold mines.

Government and business SPECULATES and Deceives with YOUR MONEY

REMEMBER THE BRIDGE TO NOWHERE?
It is coming here. Stop the BUS TO NOWHERE

]]> By: Mary caldwell http://www.grpundit.com/2009/04/19/the-rapid-silver-line-more-concealment-and-deceit/#comment-457 Mary caldwell Tue, 21 Apr 2009 04:27:56 +0000 http://www.grpundit.com/?p=346#comment-457 I live on this route with a bus stop right on the corner and I am AMAZED that they are selling this monster because the Buses in Wyoming and Kentwood are always mostly empty or downright EMPTY! CRAZY to be paying for this many extra empty buses and then ask for MORE! Where is our media? I took this bus to downtown to pick up GVSU bus and never had a problem with the speed. They speak of New York City and huge cities when talking about this. Heh people WE DON'T have the Population density for this. Go to wikpedia.org and punch in the ciites with rapid transit and they are HUGE compared to us. Please visit www.grandrapidsbustonowhere.homestead.com and www.silverlinerapidtransistgrandrapids.com Anyone want to meet at 7 p.m at 54th and Divison and rally with signs at the EMPTY bus stop tell me when and where I live on this route with a bus stop right on the corner and I am AMAZED that they are selling this monster because the Buses in Wyoming and Kentwood are always mostly empty or downright EMPTY! CRAZY to be paying for this many extra empty buses and then ask for MORE! Where is our media?
I took this bus to downtown to pick up GVSU bus and never had a problem with the speed.

They speak of New York City and huge cities when talking about this. Heh people WE DON’T have the Population density for this. Go to wikpedia.org and punch in the ciites with rapid transit and they are HUGE compared to us.

Please visit http://www.grandrapidsbustonowhere.homestead.com

and
http://www.silverlinerapidtransistgrandrapids.com

Anyone want to meet at 7 p.m at 54th and Divison and rally with signs at the EMPTY bus stop tell me when and where

]]> By: GRPundit http://www.grpundit.com/2009/04/19/the-rapid-silver-line-more-concealment-and-deceit/#comment-454 GRPundit Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:26:28 +0000 http://www.grpundit.com/?p=346#comment-454 Thanks for the link to their minutes. The $70 million comes from their statement that this is an increase of $13 million (in the first year) for five years. Factoring in property tax value increases, this comes out to approximately $70 million. Although they post some information on their site, it's thoroughly sanitized. No one should have to request a copy of their budget, it should automatically be posted for all to see, as most other local governments do. We've gotten copies of their real budgets for the last several years, but they still don't post them. Thanks for the link to their minutes.

The $70 million comes from their statement that this is an increase of $13 million (in the first year) for five years. Factoring in property tax value increases, this comes out to approximately $70 million.

Although they post some information on their site, it’s thoroughly sanitized. No one should have to request a copy of their budget, it should automatically be posted for all to see, as most other local governments do. We’ve gotten copies of their real budgets for the last several years, but they still don’t post them.

]]> By: SouthlandGR http://www.grpundit.com/2009/04/19/the-rapid-silver-line-more-concealment-and-deceit/#comment-453 SouthlandGR Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:18:58 +0000 http://www.grpundit.com/?p=346#comment-453 General publications: http://www.ridetherapid.org/about/reports-publications Archived Minutes: http://www.ridetherapid.org/about/board Besides the website, I'm sure that if you call or write The Rapid -- someone there would be happy to send you a budget report. Also, please be more clear and show your work. I don't understand where your figure of 70$M came from. At the very least you should itemize this value. It will greatly help educate your readers. While I think the benefits of the Silver Line are being overstated by Friends of Transit your post seems to critiques the Rapid for the sake of critiquing it. There are a lot of people in Grand Rapids who have a genuine concern where their tax dollars are headed, but you did very little to inform us. General publications: http://www.ridetherapid.org/about/reports-publications

Archived Minutes: http://www.ridetherapid.org/about/board

Besides the website, I’m sure that if you call or write The Rapid — someone there would be happy to send you a budget report.

Also, please be more clear and show your work. I don’t understand where your figure of 70$M came from. At the very least you should itemize this value. It will greatly help educate your readers.

While I think the benefits of the Silver Line are being overstated by Friends of Transit your post seems to critiques the Rapid for the sake of critiquing it. There are a lot of people in Grand Rapids who have a genuine concern where their tax dollars are headed, but you did very little to inform us.

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